I don't think I'm being unreasonable.
Nov. 25th, 2008 07:32 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
summer_sparrowThat's a phrase my mom uses frequently in arguments. It seems an applicable title to this post.
My mom and I get along fairly well, most of the time.
When we argue, though, we basically enact the same scene over and over. I'm tired of it. I want to change it. I try to address the problem in every argument-- using the kind of PC words I hate but they're the only things that accurately describe what I'm trying to accomplish.
I have faults when I argue. I get loud. I speak with my hands, which can seem aggressive when combined with a raised voice. Even while keeping my arguments as logical as I can, I can get physically emotional (voice breaking, tears, etc).
My mom also has faults when she argues, and sometimes I feel like she doesn't believe that. She sometimes acts as if she is always reasonable. She's more reasonable than most people, I'll grant, but not nearly so reasonable as she thinks she is. And even less so in an argument. She doesn't want to talk about things. She wants to walk away from anything that might be upsetting or painful.
In my view, all that does is hurt. Perhaps it only hurts me. I will admit I have a serious issue with people walking away from me-- but then, I believe that if I can only find the right way to say what I mean, it'll finally get through, so when someone walks away from me, I have failed. Is this a fault? Perhaps it is, but it's a deep part of who I am. It's words, and they've always been my way.
Tonight we argued about something, and that's the reason for this post. We settled it, I guess, but I'm still hurting, and I need a place to vent that.
The original reason is entirely my fault. I'm a careless person. I'm working on it, but it's hard to change a longstanding aspect of yourself (absentmindedness, in my case). My mom doesn't seem to realize that it is difficult. It takes constant thinking about-- and when the problem is that things don't occur to me, I don't think about it, then that's twice as hard.
I left a bottle of nail polish remover on top of a book, on top of a table. I apparently hadn't closed the lid all the way, and this morning she knocked the table and the remover spilled. The table was made by her father, in high school. He died when I was four. She seems to almost worship the memory of him; she loved him beyond belief.
(That's something else that hurts; when she said "I don't think you can understand how important he was to me." Ah. I don't understand love? Thank you. That doesn't hurt at all.)
That was my fault, through the lack of attention that led me to forget to completely cap the bottle. I apologized, and continued unloading groceries from the car. She seemed to act as if she didn't accept the apology, something she frequently does. Or perhaps it's only how I perceive it; still, that's what I see.
So I said-- and it was horrible timing, but the concept has been seething in me for a while-- "Why is sorry never enough? I apologize for things but you don't ever seem to want to accept it."
She said that because I do things so often that require apologies-- sometimes the same thing multiple times-- that she finds it hard to accept my apologies. Fair point. I addressed it slightly above, but really, I'm not working as hard as I could to change it. I should be working harder. I should be doing better. I'm not. The thing is... what can I do? I have no TARDIS. I can't change it. All I can do is apologize and try to rectify the situation, if that's possible. And try to be better. Try.
Unfortunately, from there it degenerated a bit. I definitely yelled. The thing is-- I was hurt. I am hurt. So is she-- and I see that-- and I don't want her to be. But I would like to see some kind of recognition that I am hurting as well.
The gist of it has been the same in every argument, and here it is:
She feels that she can't say anything at all. That if she says anything, she's being unreasonable. She often says "I wish I hadn't said anything." Sometimes she says things along the lines of "Well, I guess it's my fault," "I guess I'm being a bitch/a harpy/etc." She wants to drop the conversation.
I wish I could see more from her eyes, elaborate more about what she feels, but all I can say are the things she's said to me. My own feelings, being my own, I can explain in more detail.
I feel the same way, that I can't say anything. Anything I say, repeats back at me as about five steps further and a bit meaner than anything I intended (and as far as I can tell, what I've actually said, but perhaps I'm not hearing myself as well as I ought to be). Anything I say seems to be taken as calling her unreasonable, a bitch, a harpy. I try to choose my words carefully; I try to explain that I'm not saying what is but rather how I feel, how it seems to me. Most of the time, I don't think she's being unreasonable (perhaps in how she says things, but not in the basis for her saying them). Most of the time, I try to understand what's going on in her head, and I feel I have a little bit of success in that. Her reasons usually make sense to me. Yet it seems as though there's nothing I can do or say to convey my reasons, thoughts, or apologies to her. She, who prides herself on seeing both sides of the argument, doesn't ever quite see mine. I find this extraordinarily painful. My mother, my friend, who is supposed to understand me better than anyone-- doesn't. Perhaps it's the severing of a tie that hurts so much; it's not something I ever expected to happen.
After we calmed down a bit-- well, she seemed to, but to be honest she was probably doing the same thing as I was and just suppressing it-- I tried to explain the things I've laid out in this post. She didn't want to discuss it, but it needs to be discussed at some point. It breaks my heart every time it happens, and we need to talk it out. Eventually she agreed to discuss it. If I needed that discussion, she said; we both need it, I'm not certain she understands that. We need to discuss it because it needs not to happen, and we have to figure out a way to do that. We hurt each other, and we need to figure out exactly what we are saying and doing that does it.
She seems to consider herself a diplomat, but in life she seems astonishingly adverse to discussions. I'm perhaps too prone to them; but as I said, words. I'm convinced, for better or for worse, if only there's enough talking, long enough, it can fix anything. Or at least resolve it.
She said if I wrote my feelings down, she'd write me a rebuttal--her words exactly. I'm not sure I want her to rebut my thoughts. I just want her to understand them. I... don't think that's unreasonable.
I'm considering showing her this-- what do you think? I mean, none of you know my mom, but what would you think if your daughter (whether you have one or not) gave you this?
I'm tired. I'm just... so damned tired.
My mom and I get along fairly well, most of the time.
When we argue, though, we basically enact the same scene over and over. I'm tired of it. I want to change it. I try to address the problem in every argument-- using the kind of PC words I hate but they're the only things that accurately describe what I'm trying to accomplish.
I have faults when I argue. I get loud. I speak with my hands, which can seem aggressive when combined with a raised voice. Even while keeping my arguments as logical as I can, I can get physically emotional (voice breaking, tears, etc).
My mom also has faults when she argues, and sometimes I feel like she doesn't believe that. She sometimes acts as if she is always reasonable. She's more reasonable than most people, I'll grant, but not nearly so reasonable as she thinks she is. And even less so in an argument. She doesn't want to talk about things. She wants to walk away from anything that might be upsetting or painful.
In my view, all that does is hurt. Perhaps it only hurts me. I will admit I have a serious issue with people walking away from me-- but then, I believe that if I can only find the right way to say what I mean, it'll finally get through, so when someone walks away from me, I have failed. Is this a fault? Perhaps it is, but it's a deep part of who I am. It's words, and they've always been my way.
Tonight we argued about something, and that's the reason for this post. We settled it, I guess, but I'm still hurting, and I need a place to vent that.
The original reason is entirely my fault. I'm a careless person. I'm working on it, but it's hard to change a longstanding aspect of yourself (absentmindedness, in my case). My mom doesn't seem to realize that it is difficult. It takes constant thinking about-- and when the problem is that things don't occur to me, I don't think about it, then that's twice as hard.
I left a bottle of nail polish remover on top of a book, on top of a table. I apparently hadn't closed the lid all the way, and this morning she knocked the table and the remover spilled. The table was made by her father, in high school. He died when I was four. She seems to almost worship the memory of him; she loved him beyond belief.
(That's something else that hurts; when she said "I don't think you can understand how important he was to me." Ah. I don't understand love? Thank you. That doesn't hurt at all.)
That was my fault, through the lack of attention that led me to forget to completely cap the bottle. I apologized, and continued unloading groceries from the car. She seemed to act as if she didn't accept the apology, something she frequently does. Or perhaps it's only how I perceive it; still, that's what I see.
So I said-- and it was horrible timing, but the concept has been seething in me for a while-- "Why is sorry never enough? I apologize for things but you don't ever seem to want to accept it."
She said that because I do things so often that require apologies-- sometimes the same thing multiple times-- that she finds it hard to accept my apologies. Fair point. I addressed it slightly above, but really, I'm not working as hard as I could to change it. I should be working harder. I should be doing better. I'm not. The thing is... what can I do? I have no TARDIS. I can't change it. All I can do is apologize and try to rectify the situation, if that's possible. And try to be better. Try.
Unfortunately, from there it degenerated a bit. I definitely yelled. The thing is-- I was hurt. I am hurt. So is she-- and I see that-- and I don't want her to be. But I would like to see some kind of recognition that I am hurting as well.
The gist of it has been the same in every argument, and here it is:
She feels that she can't say anything at all. That if she says anything, she's being unreasonable. She often says "I wish I hadn't said anything." Sometimes she says things along the lines of "Well, I guess it's my fault," "I guess I'm being a bitch/a harpy/etc." She wants to drop the conversation.
I wish I could see more from her eyes, elaborate more about what she feels, but all I can say are the things she's said to me. My own feelings, being my own, I can explain in more detail.
I feel the same way, that I can't say anything. Anything I say, repeats back at me as about five steps further and a bit meaner than anything I intended (and as far as I can tell, what I've actually said, but perhaps I'm not hearing myself as well as I ought to be). Anything I say seems to be taken as calling her unreasonable, a bitch, a harpy. I try to choose my words carefully; I try to explain that I'm not saying what is but rather how I feel, how it seems to me. Most of the time, I don't think she's being unreasonable (perhaps in how she says things, but not in the basis for her saying them). Most of the time, I try to understand what's going on in her head, and I feel I have a little bit of success in that. Her reasons usually make sense to me. Yet it seems as though there's nothing I can do or say to convey my reasons, thoughts, or apologies to her. She, who prides herself on seeing both sides of the argument, doesn't ever quite see mine. I find this extraordinarily painful. My mother, my friend, who is supposed to understand me better than anyone-- doesn't. Perhaps it's the severing of a tie that hurts so much; it's not something I ever expected to happen.
After we calmed down a bit-- well, she seemed to, but to be honest she was probably doing the same thing as I was and just suppressing it-- I tried to explain the things I've laid out in this post. She didn't want to discuss it, but it needs to be discussed at some point. It breaks my heart every time it happens, and we need to talk it out. Eventually she agreed to discuss it. If I needed that discussion, she said; we both need it, I'm not certain she understands that. We need to discuss it because it needs not to happen, and we have to figure out a way to do that. We hurt each other, and we need to figure out exactly what we are saying and doing that does it.
She seems to consider herself a diplomat, but in life she seems astonishingly adverse to discussions. I'm perhaps too prone to them; but as I said, words. I'm convinced, for better or for worse, if only there's enough talking, long enough, it can fix anything. Or at least resolve it.
She said if I wrote my feelings down, she'd write me a rebuttal--her words exactly. I'm not sure I want her to rebut my thoughts. I just want her to understand them. I... don't think that's unreasonable.
I'm considering showing her this-- what do you think? I mean, none of you know my mom, but what would you think if your daughter (whether you have one or not) gave you this?
I'm tired. I'm just... so damned tired.
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(no subject)
Date: 2008-11-26 05:14 am (UTC)I think it's a good idea to write something and show it to your mom, but not necessarily this. In my experience, it's always better to say just what you feel, and try to avoid interpreting other people's behavior or feelings.
That said, from your description, I think your mother is looking for more acknowledgment of her feelings when you apologize. Let's face it, your carelessness led to a rather heart-breaking situation for her. She probably needs verbal proof that you recognize how sad and frustrated she was, even more than an apology.
Also, if you sense that someone is really upset about something, and you are responsible, then it's important to offer to do whatever necessary to make amends. Otherwise, an apology is never going to feel like enough, or genuinely sincere.
There are a lot of reasons to back away from an argument. It looks like your mom felt that things were getting worse, and not better, and didn't know how to turn things around. Or, she felt like she wasn't being heard, so why talk?
Obviously, I don't know what's going on with your mom. I just know that I've walked away from arguments when I feel that I'm at a disadvantage--sometimes because of intimidation. And I know that most of all, everyone just wants to be heard. That's what you want, yes? But because you were originally in the wrong, and because you are the one who can see that this needs solving, it's going to be up to you to listen to her first.
Listen, and instead of arguing, just try to affirm her feelings. Then it will be your turn.
Hope this helps! (I need this advice as much as anyone.)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-11-26 06:34 am (UTC)However...if her mom wants her not to be absentminded, and wants her apologies to include a promise not to be absentminded, no. Absolutely no. Absentminded people are absentminded, and I should know, because I am one. You cannot shame or guilt an absentminded person into becoming less absentminded. You can completely damage their sense of self-worth, though, by focussing on those things that they cannot change rather than recognising--or, my god, even assisting--their efforts to manage their absentmindedness.
I recognise that my own family baggage makes me a lot more likely to say "give up, because it's not going to happen, just deal as best you can till you can move out, and things will improve one way or another" than some other people. But sometimes the answer is to give up, deal as best you can, and then get out and see if it improves.
(Dear gods, I would never promise to do whatever it took to make amends. What if what she wants is something I can't do?)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-11-26 06:26 am (UTC)Seriously. Tell her what you are going to tell her. Tell her simply but completely in words of few syllables. And then be done with it.
Do not write down your feelings for her to rebut. (What a horrible, horrible idea.) Do not keep attempting to explain once she doesn't get it the first time. Just say "Okay." and walk away.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-11-26 06:49 pm (UTC)I desperately wish that I could adopt
I'm not going to push for the conversation again. I think you're right. I'll just say "okay" and walk away from it. It's better for my sanity and probably won't give me ulcers like this is trying to do.
Thank you. :)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-11-26 03:26 pm (UTC)But it took me living somewhere else for five years first.
I don't think it matters if either of you are "being unreasonable". What I find I'm generally looking for, in situations like you're describing, is an acknowledgement that I'm right, or at least that what I think is as valid as what the other person thinks. And the thing is, you can never ever force anyone to believe that.
There is nothing you can do to force her point of view to change. It sounds as though you've tried your best to present your perspective coherently and rationally, and if that didn't work, it didn't work.
I really think that frequently the problem in parent-child relationships is that the patterns of behavior have been set for so long and were set at such DIFFERENT points in one's life that they can be both incredibly harmful and impossible to change. You aren't 8 anymore, or 12, or even 17. The assumptions your mom is likely carrying from when you WERE 8, or 12, or 17 may be simply not accurate anymore. But you cannot "prove" to her how you've changed or grown up or that she's wrong about you or how to treat you. It isn't concious on either part. The only things I have ever seen change how people relate from long-standing patterns are therapy (to a lesser degree) and time apart (to a larger degree).
I don't think you want to have your feelings "rebutted" - she doesn't have the RIGHT to rebut your feelings, as they are yours. One of the most helpful things someone said to me this year over and over again till I *GOT IT* was that, no matter how dumb or irrational or "unreasonable" I may feel my feelings are, they are mine, and I have a right to them. No one has the right to take that away.
Also, saying she wants to "rebut your feelings" says pretty clearly exactly how willing to fix this pattern she is. I hate to say this, but you can't ever force someone else to change, and you can't force them to treat you differently. The most you can ever, ever do is change how you deal with (behave towards, relate to) them.
*hugs tight*
(no subject)
Date: 2008-11-26 06:45 pm (UTC)I wish I could move away from here, but I’m not sure I could convince the boy to come with me, and I couldn’t stand that. I don’t know… I feel tangled sometimes. I want too many things that can’t go together.
But thank you for the advice anyway. Really, I think that’s all I really did want, for people to say I wasn’t completely wrong—or at least that my thoughts and feelings were valid.
Thank you babe. *clings back*